I'd throw a punch to fight for Canada's sovereignty while reserving and exercising my right to criticize this country. That's a fine form of patriotism.
I've always liked Orwell's (I think) distinction between nationalism and patriotism: patriotism is believing your country is the best in the world. Nationalism is acting like everyone else has to believe as well. Makes me totally comfortable being a Canadian patriot.
I just re-read Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism" a couple nights ago, and noted that distinction as well. There's nothing wrong with being patriotic, and it certainly doesn't mean you need to believe your country is perfect or above criticism. What we want is to be left alone, respected, and permitted to make our own decisions on our own terms.
No need to be “reluctant” about it. There is no country in the world that is free of flaws. After all, countries are made up of humans who are certainly not flawless. We do the best we can. And sometmes we do the worst we can. There is no point in torturing ourselves with shame over historical “wrongs”. When we know better, we do better. Canada is presently in an existential struggle. I for one am going to fight like hell!
To your point, what is patriotism if not constructive criticism persisting though? Anytime we blindly buy in to "Canada is the best country in the world", we are at risk of perpetuating the malaise we've been dealing with - income inequality, unaffordable housing, broken reconciliation processes etc. Being clear eyed and critical while believing we have something worth protecting is the only way we'll fulfill our potential.
Thank you, David. Once again you have made clear what many of us feel. I was a young kid during Trudeaumania and I couldn't understand why my Granddad hated the man- it wasn't until I was older, in high school, that I discovered that my Granddad was a socialist and he and his family had fought for Canada in The War, and what was promised didn't fully develop, and he wanted better for us. I love Canadians and will fight for us, too.
David - I think what you're trying to say is..."Isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you don't let the nation get in the way." Gord Downie from the song Fireworks. - I think your point goes without saying. -Rather - 'Our obligation is to show respect and honour our living elders who have show determination and resiliency in service of all Canadians, like David Suzuki, Maude Barlow, Jean Chretien et al....but the list goes on and on and on, take your pick. Leonard Cohen and Oscar Peterson alone are reason enough to get out of bed in the morning and remember with pride, who we are as Canadians. The list of greatness is too long now anyways. Manners and deference should not be mistaken for weakness, for those in the quiet corners are just as likely to give their mind, body and soul in defence of Canada. Just watch us!' https://trkingston.substack.com/p/oh-canada-je-me-souviens
A surge of patriotism (not so much nationalism) is just what’s needed in response to the threats and nastiness from our neighbour but also as a corrective to the extreme individualism and consumerism we have been fed through decades of neoliberalism. And patriot’s always fight - along with others - to make their country stronger, more just, more resilient, and are happy to work with other like-minded countries on global challenges, no?
Often, folks confused about liberalism (human nature), tend towards Marxism ("I got mine by hard work; you stole yours; I want yours.") They seem disappointed and resentful.
Of course, a political theory that depends on committees of people to manage everyone's choices is corrupt, evil, and the death of hope, innovation, motivation, meritocracy.
But thanks for clarifying... that you understand and agree that capitalism and good governance are the best of the bad systems, and allow us to thrive and meet our potential.
Capitalism took me from living on the street to good jobs to owning my own home and having savings to rely on. Long live capitalism! (Marxism is death... of hope, innovation, motivation, meritocracy.)
Well, maybe should also be reading this. Seriously, Trump made Americans the enemy, not the Americans themselves. If you're going to that, then blame the electoral college on this, because back when Trump won in 2016, Hillary had won the popular vote, but Trump won the college; yes, it does happen all the time, the person who got to be the president didn't always win the popular vote
We need our government to back up the support of the Canadian people with a monthly tariff dividend.
If all that money is going to get tied up in taxes, we need a way to get it back in circulation. Allowing people who may not have many financial choices, to choose where this money goes would go a long way to strengthening the Canadian fabric.
David - let me know where to mobilize and I will be there. I hope it doesn’t come to that……but……….this is my country and I will fight to protect our way of life if I have to.
If being sane, reasonable, pragmatic, practical, realistic, and non-reactionary equates to nationalism/patriotism, then I'm all for it. If circumstances, however, require something stronger in order to preserve that sanity, then I say damn the torpedoes; full steam ahead.
What's fueling my "rah rah Canada" attitude recently has been the potential for Canada to do something no other country has successfully done before: be the first colony to truly reckon with its violent history and undue the harms of empire and capital. We're at a turning point where Canada can further define itself; I hesitate to say "re-define," because there's always been a part of Canadian identity that comprised of "Hey, we're not Americans." Part of that further definition can be in moving away from America and aiming to be a country that embraces the diversity of its original nations and unites around a shared path forward. That's the future I want to see Canada work towards, and I think it can happen.
I don't think the USA and Canada are at the same point on their paths to reconciliation and I can't see any reason why it'd only be Trump that derailed progress in confronting the USA's genocidal history. I'm definitely not saying Canada's far down that road - certainly not yet - but it's further than the USA as far as I can tell.
They were. Even before the discovery of those graves, American historians had acknowledged that the US had a genocidal past. And judging by what Trump did to the Dakota Access Pipeline, he's proven time and again that he never cared for Indigenous people. It's just that we already went through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in 2015, and you forgot that Joe Biden apologized for what had happened after they made an investigation into this. I feared that this attitude had resulted in people declaring that the US and Canada would never be close, even though it's nearly impossible to do that since both countries are culturally similar and too geographically close to have this happen. Heck, now that you mentioned, yes, Trump isn't the only one to do that, but in a way that Mark Carney is also doing that too, with him declaring that the US "want our land, they want our resources, they want our water, they want our country." First off, this was nothing but nationalist fearmongering. And secondly, this isn't "Canada's" but binationally, as many of our geographical features are found in the US (Lake Michigan is the only Great Lake to not border Canada), but on topic with this, it wasn't Canada's in a way that it's not America's resources and water; they belonged to the Indigenous Peoples who had lived there for centuries before Europeans arrived. Many tribes that are a part of Canada were also part of the US, and even then, they came from similar geographic/linguistic backgrounds. Both the border and the creation of both nations were imposed on them, and that's why we have those things. If you want reconciliation, then stop claiming that those resources and water are yours because they weren't yours to begin with; they were already stolen by your white ancestors. So yes, that to me is still a problem because both countries claiming who owns these things are claiming within a similar settler-colonial mindset, especially since I have not heard from anyone talking about how ironic that the new Prime Minister isn;t acknowledging our move from that past
I agree with the majority of that and I'm not sure what I've said that gives you the sense that I disagree. Any Canadian "nationalism" has to start with two words: land back. Anything else keeps this country in a genocidal, colonial mindset. That's the vision I want Canada to unite around, though if you're saying Canada, the institution, is antithetical to that goal, I can see that (but I would disagree).
I know Biden appointed Haaland as his head of the DOI, but Canada progressed beyond the "formal apology" stage a good decade before Biden.
Yes, and I feared that this would also be undermined by what Trump has said. I mean "Elbows Up Canada," really? This appears to much of "Make America Great Again," and I don't support nationalism, as my people were targeted by nationalists.
And much of the reason why we progressed from the formal apology is probably because the US had yet to move away from its exceptionalism myth, which ties closely with Manifest Destiny and how it ravaged indigenous peoples, as well as the fact that many Republicans heavily support the very industries that were fighting to undermine Indigenous rights.
If anything, I fear that with all of the emphasis on "sovereignty" in the vaguest of senses would result in a reversal of a trend to fully reconcile with our dark history and undermine the emphasis on a transnational Canada-US history. If anything, if you want to reconcile with this dark history, one of the first things we have to do is to acknowledge the fact that those "Canadian" waters and resources belonged to Indigenous peoples first, and that both Canada and the US were abritarily divided in the 19th century by white settlers and not Indigenous peoples, who couldn't care less if they are living in a completely different country. It's the basis for the Jay Treaty, something the Canadian government has since refused to recognize after the War of 1812 for a reason
I definitely share a lot more of that fear now than I did at the time of posting. The general tenor of the conversation around "sovereignty" has given me significant concern. I do think a national identity premised on full reconciliation and nation-to-nation relations is one worth pushing for all the same. I don't know what other way forward there can be.
Thanks David for being strong on our needs to strengthen our nationalism while being a true Canadian by being humble and acknowledging our weaknesses but all the while showing why we are proud of what it means to be Canadian.
I've always liked Orwell's (I think) distinction between nationalism and patriotism: patriotism is believing your country is the best in the world. Nationalism is acting like everyone else has to believe as well. Makes me totally comfortable being a Canadian patriot.
I just re-read Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism" a couple nights ago, and noted that distinction as well. There's nothing wrong with being patriotic, and it certainly doesn't mean you need to believe your country is perfect or above criticism. What we want is to be left alone, respected, and permitted to make our own decisions on our own terms.
Only *we* get to call Canada "just three monopolies in a trenchcoat," fuck everyone else who tries it.
No need to be “reluctant” about it. There is no country in the world that is free of flaws. After all, countries are made up of humans who are certainly not flawless. We do the best we can. And sometmes we do the worst we can. There is no point in torturing ourselves with shame over historical “wrongs”. When we know better, we do better. Canada is presently in an existential struggle. I for one am going to fight like hell!
To your point, what is patriotism if not constructive criticism persisting though? Anytime we blindly buy in to "Canada is the best country in the world", we are at risk of perpetuating the malaise we've been dealing with - income inequality, unaffordable housing, broken reconciliation processes etc. Being clear eyed and critical while believing we have something worth protecting is the only way we'll fulfill our potential.
Well said…thank you!
Thank you, David. Once again you have made clear what many of us feel. I was a young kid during Trudeaumania and I couldn't understand why my Granddad hated the man- it wasn't until I was older, in high school, that I discovered that my Granddad was a socialist and he and his family had fought for Canada in The War, and what was promised didn't fully develop, and he wanted better for us. I love Canadians and will fight for us, too.
David - I think what you're trying to say is..."Isn't it amazing what you can accomplish when you don't let the nation get in the way." Gord Downie from the song Fireworks. - I think your point goes without saying. -Rather - 'Our obligation is to show respect and honour our living elders who have show determination and resiliency in service of all Canadians, like David Suzuki, Maude Barlow, Jean Chretien et al....but the list goes on and on and on, take your pick. Leonard Cohen and Oscar Peterson alone are reason enough to get out of bed in the morning and remember with pride, who we are as Canadians. The list of greatness is too long now anyways. Manners and deference should not be mistaken for weakness, for those in the quiet corners are just as likely to give their mind, body and soul in defence of Canada. Just watch us!' https://trkingston.substack.com/p/oh-canada-je-me-souviens
nailed it. Thanks for putting into words, what is in my heart
I suspect this sentiment plays out at the provincial level too.
Well said!!
A surge of patriotism (not so much nationalism) is just what’s needed in response to the threats and nastiness from our neighbour but also as a corrective to the extreme individualism and consumerism we have been fed through decades of neoliberalism. And patriot’s always fight - along with others - to make their country stronger, more just, more resilient, and are happy to work with other like-minded countries on global challenges, no?
hardly / it’s just that yours was a totally false dichotomy - nobody was talking Marxism except you
Often, folks confused about liberalism (human nature), tend towards Marxism ("I got mine by hard work; you stole yours; I want yours.") They seem disappointed and resentful.
Of course, a political theory that depends on committees of people to manage everyone's choices is corrupt, evil, and the death of hope, innovation, motivation, meritocracy.
But thanks for clarifying... that you understand and agree that capitalism and good governance are the best of the bad systems, and allow us to thrive and meet our potential.
you had me til neoliberalism lol.
Capitalism took me from living on the street to good jobs to owning my own home and having savings to rely on. Long live capitalism! (Marxism is death... of hope, innovation, motivation, meritocracy.)
an entirely false dichotomy
by all means, expound... lol
That’s not capitalism …
huh?
Ironically it took Trump's stupidity to rally enough Canadians to be proud of the flag and to take efforts at reforms more seriously.
Well, maybe should also be reading this. Seriously, Trump made Americans the enemy, not the Americans themselves. If you're going to that, then blame the electoral college on this, because back when Trump won in 2016, Hillary had won the popular vote, but Trump won the college; yes, it does happen all the time, the person who got to be the president didn't always win the popular vote
https://journals.openedition.org/nuevomundo/59404
The electoral college has been a known problem since 2000 yet they did nothing about it
If you want to know why? Opposition to change, that's why
The culture of complacency is called American Exceptionalism
You know they had made efforts to change the electoral college, right? And you still proved my point that the reason was opposition to change
We need our government to back up the support of the Canadian people with a monthly tariff dividend.
If all that money is going to get tied up in taxes, we need a way to get it back in circulation. Allowing people who may not have many financial choices, to choose where this money goes would go a long way to strengthening the Canadian fabric.
David - let me know where to mobilize and I will be there. I hope it doesn’t come to that……but……….this is my country and I will fight to protect our way of life if I have to.
If being sane, reasonable, pragmatic, practical, realistic, and non-reactionary equates to nationalism/patriotism, then I'm all for it. If circumstances, however, require something stronger in order to preserve that sanity, then I say damn the torpedoes; full steam ahead.
What's fueling my "rah rah Canada" attitude recently has been the potential for Canada to do something no other country has successfully done before: be the first colony to truly reckon with its violent history and undue the harms of empire and capital. We're at a turning point where Canada can further define itself; I hesitate to say "re-define," because there's always been a part of Canadian identity that comprised of "Hey, we're not Americans." Part of that further definition can be in moving away from America and aiming to be a country that embraces the diversity of its original nations and unites around a shared path forward. That's the future I want to see Canada work towards, and I think it can happen.
Oh really: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/united-states-canada-residential-schools-1.6114085. Both countries had been reckoning with this past at the simultaneously; it's just that Trump won the election now and thus it's going to stall for a while
I don't think the USA and Canada are at the same point on their paths to reconciliation and I can't see any reason why it'd only be Trump that derailed progress in confronting the USA's genocidal history. I'm definitely not saying Canada's far down that road - certainly not yet - but it's further than the USA as far as I can tell.
They were. Even before the discovery of those graves, American historians had acknowledged that the US had a genocidal past. And judging by what Trump did to the Dakota Access Pipeline, he's proven time and again that he never cared for Indigenous people. It's just that we already went through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in 2015, and you forgot that Joe Biden apologized for what had happened after they made an investigation into this. I feared that this attitude had resulted in people declaring that the US and Canada would never be close, even though it's nearly impossible to do that since both countries are culturally similar and too geographically close to have this happen. Heck, now that you mentioned, yes, Trump isn't the only one to do that, but in a way that Mark Carney is also doing that too, with him declaring that the US "want our land, they want our resources, they want our water, they want our country." First off, this was nothing but nationalist fearmongering. And secondly, this isn't "Canada's" but binationally, as many of our geographical features are found in the US (Lake Michigan is the only Great Lake to not border Canada), but on topic with this, it wasn't Canada's in a way that it's not America's resources and water; they belonged to the Indigenous Peoples who had lived there for centuries before Europeans arrived. Many tribes that are a part of Canada were also part of the US, and even then, they came from similar geographic/linguistic backgrounds. Both the border and the creation of both nations were imposed on them, and that's why we have those things. If you want reconciliation, then stop claiming that those resources and water are yours because they weren't yours to begin with; they were already stolen by your white ancestors. So yes, that to me is still a problem because both countries claiming who owns these things are claiming within a similar settler-colonial mindset, especially since I have not heard from anyone talking about how ironic that the new Prime Minister isn;t acknowledging our move from that past
I agree with the majority of that and I'm not sure what I've said that gives you the sense that I disagree. Any Canadian "nationalism" has to start with two words: land back. Anything else keeps this country in a genocidal, colonial mindset. That's the vision I want Canada to unite around, though if you're saying Canada, the institution, is antithetical to that goal, I can see that (but I would disagree).
I know Biden appointed Haaland as his head of the DOI, but Canada progressed beyond the "formal apology" stage a good decade before Biden.
Yes, and I feared that this would also be undermined by what Trump has said. I mean "Elbows Up Canada," really? This appears to much of "Make America Great Again," and I don't support nationalism, as my people were targeted by nationalists.
And much of the reason why we progressed from the formal apology is probably because the US had yet to move away from its exceptionalism myth, which ties closely with Manifest Destiny and how it ravaged indigenous peoples, as well as the fact that many Republicans heavily support the very industries that were fighting to undermine Indigenous rights.
If anything, I fear that with all of the emphasis on "sovereignty" in the vaguest of senses would result in a reversal of a trend to fully reconcile with our dark history and undermine the emphasis on a transnational Canada-US history. If anything, if you want to reconcile with this dark history, one of the first things we have to do is to acknowledge the fact that those "Canadian" waters and resources belonged to Indigenous peoples first, and that both Canada and the US were abritarily divided in the 19th century by white settlers and not Indigenous peoples, who couldn't care less if they are living in a completely different country. It's the basis for the Jay Treaty, something the Canadian government has since refused to recognize after the War of 1812 for a reason
I definitely share a lot more of that fear now than I did at the time of posting. The general tenor of the conversation around "sovereignty" has given me significant concern. I do think a national identity premised on full reconciliation and nation-to-nation relations is one worth pushing for all the same. I don't know what other way forward there can be.
Thanks David for being strong on our needs to strengthen our nationalism while being a true Canadian by being humble and acknowledging our weaknesses but all the while showing why we are proud of what it means to be Canadian.